Interview mit Toby Driver von Kayo Dot

The release of your new album „Moss Grew In The Swords And Plowshares Alike“, according to your label, coincides with the 25th anniversary of the formation of your former band maudlin of the well and the 20th anniversary of „Bath / Leaving Your Body Map“. What goes through your mind when you think back to those early years?
I think equally about how naïve I was, and how much magic there was in the creative process (probably because of that naïvety.) The naïvety leads me to a lot of regrets, as I think that things could have gone much better for my life if I’d made some better decisions or if I’d had some kind of mentor to guide me through those early career days. I’m continuously shocked that today, people talk about maudlin of the Well in legendary terms with great reverence because my memory of the experience was that nobody cared about us at all and we didn’t receive much respect. However, I’m a believer in the necessity to “pay one’s dues” in music, so experiences like that must be crucial for leading to a more elightened place. But anyway, let’s talk a little bit about magic. The guys and I were discussing whether to do more maudlin of the Well music or not, and to me it seemed that it would be impossible to capture that sense of wonder, unknowing, innocence, and discovery that made MOTW what it was. I was an educated musician, but not too educated… I mean, I didn’t attend a conservatory but I was pursuing a bachelor’s degree in music from a liberal arts school. I studied music as a kid, too, but my teachers were chill and fun as opposed to being like stereotypical brutal Russian classical piano teachers or something. And Jason Byron studied writing only as a voracious reader and fan of the word, but not academically in any way. So MOTW was taking a very small amount of knowledge and using that to open doors, with our youth preventing us from appearing totally foolish. At my age now, I believe that a certain type of mastery is essential in my work – not precluding wide-eyed discovery, of course, but rather being a foundation for that discovery.

Did you already imagine back then how your career as a musician would eventually develop? What went as planned and what went differently?
Yes, I believe very strongly in my work, and I always have. Today, I have the same essential wishes that I had back then. I believed then, as I do now, that given the proper resources and opportunities my work and career will truly flourish in a way that hasn’t been seen yet. I’ve learned about how inseparable the community aspect is from a successful music career – in short, we all need each other and we are interdependent. I’m doing my work and will continue to do so, but I’m still waiting and „hustling“ (ugh) for that crucial bit of help from a powerful person that has not yet come, and there, I think back to the MOTW days… no one understands at the time and they only respect you 20 years later once it’s too late. I want someone to say, hey, I believe in you and I can help you in a big way. It must be said, of course, that many people already do this in small ways – which is greatly appreciated and not to be taken for granted.
I think what went „as planned“ is that I’m still making music, and it is my legitimate profession. What has not gone as planned is that I’m still constantly right on the edge of not being able to do it, and still constantly panicking about where my next work and income is going to come from. It would be nice to just get into a little bit more secure territory.

The music industry is not very kind to experimental musicians like you, which you yourself have criticized in the past. How do you think condictions for musicians could be improved?
Ha, yes, you’re right. Well, speaking idealistically, artistic music and capitalism must be separated. This has already been achieved in some progressive societies, and with certain genres. Take for example certain countries that will provide tax-funded annual salaries for musicians, or will pay for their artists to go on tour, will provide health care, anything like this which serves to support the culture of a nation and say „These artists represent us in the world and therefore they must be nurtured.“ But the genre problem is a huge one – bureaucrats get to decide which music is subsidizable art and which music is in the marketplace, based on style and not quality. If you have a hint of rock in your music, you’re disqualified. To go on, false scarcity of resources must be eliminated. Funding inequality must be ended. Non-merit based funding must be ended. Continuous funding of the same handful of individuals while others get nothing must be ended. Basically, there needs to be a massive redistribution of wealth and resources to support simply the work being done and the ability for a few powerful individuals to systemically decide and perpetuate their sense of „value“ based only on either capitalistic pursuits or cultural pretentiousness (i.e. Jazz is culture but metal is the marketplace, bullshit imo).

How well do you yourself manage under the circumstances of the music industry?
As I mentioned above, I’m always right on the edge of not being able to survive. Fortunately I have a strong and dedicated fan community that believes in me enough to save me, but I won’t live with any security until that community grows a bit.

Certainly you don’t make such unusual music as an end in itself, and songs that are suitable for the masses can also be interesting at times. Are you sometimes tempted to focus more on more accessible music that might have wider appeal?
Honestly, I thought that almost everything I’ve made in the past several years has been pretty accessible and easy to listen to. I’ve deliberately attempted to make it easier on people, so it’s funny to me that people keep calling it avant or weird. I suppose that no matter what I do, my unusual personality and subconscious idiosyncasies will come out, and that’s actually a sign of a successful artistic voice, so I’m glad for that.

As a musician, I guess you’re always also a fan yourself. Who are your artistic idols (if one could call them that)?
I think my top artistic idol has been, and continues to be, Björk. She’s an uncompromising genius and does everything that I would love to do myself.

There’s tons of new music being released and performed every day – most of it only moderately exciting. What was the last release or show that really impressed you?
I agree with you, but one of the accidentally happy results of the pandemic was that there was this short moment in New York City between like August and November 2021 when most people were vaccinated and the mayor declared the pandemic „over,“ and concerts and restaurants opened up again. I saw a couple shows during that time, and since it had been so long since I had seen a concert, I was truly in heaven to see any live music. Things that normally would have been moderately exciting were suddenly amazing. I think many of us had this experience of realizing that we might have taken for granted someting truly beautiful, just because we’d gotten too much of it. So, I saw Old Man Gloom in November and had a very cathartic and divine experience.

Let’s talk about your new album. „Moss Grew On The Swords And Plowshares Alike“ to me sounds quite a bit more challenging and exuberant than the previous record „Blasphemy“. How did you approach the songwriting this time?
Yes, well, the foundation of the music this time was simply gothic metal. Since I knew I was going to do everything myself, I didn’t have to worry about teaching anybody any parts, so it freed me up to add more complexity than „Blasphemy“ had. From those two bases, everything grew naturally. In the past, when a live band has been involved, the music has had to change a bit to accommodate the players or instrumentation, and that didn’t apply in this case. I have to say, it’s a writing style that suits me pretty well and I’ll definitely try it again.

Did you sometimes reach your limits? Were there any setbacks or parts you weren’t satisfied with?
Not this time! I had plenty of time to get it exactly how I wanted.

The production of the record sounds fuzzier and more aloof than that of its predecessor. Did you intend it that way for a specific purpose?
I’m not sure what you mean by ‚fuzzier,‘ but, the album has more reverb and the guitars are using a type of saturated distortion more suitabe for metal, as opposed to on „Blasphemy“ which used more like an overdrive type of distortion.
I always want my albums to have a lot of reverb, and some engineers I’ve worked with in the past refuse to turn it up as much as I want. Fortunately, I had all the control this time. If there is a purpose… well, yes! It’s important to create the proper space, atmosphere, and vibe. This music is from another world and it should place you there.

Unlike „Blasphemy“, „Moss Grew On The Swords And Plowshares Alike“ doesn’t seem to tell a continuous story. However, the title and some of the lyrics suggest that futile human endeavor is a central theme. What connects the songs in terms of content from your point of view?
Correct, there’s not a continuous story, but the music exists in a world. That world is one of futility and death, failure, and the smallness of mankind. Its journey starts in the middle of the story and ends in the middle of the story. It’s an episodic spiral with a locked groove at the center.

You collaborated again this time with members of your former band maudlin of the Well. How did that come about?
It was at first an accident brought about by the pandemic; In very early 2020, before all the lockdowns started, I had been communicating with the larger maudlin of the Well group about trying to do an anniversary album. Those plans ultimately couldn’t happen, though, for obvious reasons. But during the rest of that year, I was working on music by myself and couldn’t collaborate with the KAYO DOT „Blasphemy“ lineup for the same reasons. At some point, since I was living nearer to Greg at the time, I asked him to contribute a solo to a track I was working on. When he returned his track to me, I suddenly realized that I could construct the new record in the same way as the original MOTW tapes, and then immediately pursued that direction fully. The rest of the collaboration came from that point, but made perfect sense.

The lyrics were written by Jason Byron. Why did you leave this task to him instead of being in charge yourself?
Jason Byron always writes the lyrics for KAYO DOT, and has since the beginning, with the exception of two albums that happened during a period where we were not in close contact because of certain life circumstances.

Ideally, lyrics and music intertwine and tell the same story. How does this interplay between Jason and you work?
We’ve been working together for almost 30 years now, since we were in high school together, and so we have a strong connection where we understand each other on multiple deep levels. We try different methods each time we work on an album so as to avoid redundancy. I think you should check out the lyrics to the MOTW song, „Laboratories of the Invisible World.“ I think they’re about this connection and creative process.

In many people’s minds there is probably the romantic idea of a songwriter who also writes his own lyrics and then sings them from the heart. Do you think you can sing lyrics written by others with the same fervor as lines written by yourself?
Yes, I study his lyrics intensively before I try to sing them. Also, as I said, our history goes back a long way and we’re quite close. Our destinies are intertwined. He’s not just some random stranger. It’s also refreshing for me to have that opportunity, because when I sing my own lyrics that I’ve written (in my solo music, for example), it can be very emotionally draining, especially being sung over and over again on tour. It’s cool to be able to sing about things that are a little bit outside of myself.

Your label recently caused a tense controversy with the re-release of a black metal album with antisemitic lyrics. Have you been following the controversy and if so, what do you think about it?
I saw a Facebook argument the day they announced the Silencer reissue, and have not been aware that any controversy extended beyond that Facebook argument. Anyway, I asked the label what their position was and they were clear that they aren’t Nazi sympathizers or a NSBM label in any way. They also said the lyrics need their context, and referred me to the chapter about Silencer in Dayal Patterson’s book, „Black Metal: The Cult Never Dies vol. 1“. I went and read the chapter, which is an interview with Leere, the guitarist, who makes it clear that it’s not a Nazi-supporting message, that the band has no ideology, that the song in question is more about Nazis (similar to the storytelling in Slayer’s „Angel of Death“), and that there are many other important contextual details to understanding the purpose of those lyrics beyond just posting them on a Facebook thread. Leere also says that if there’s any message in those lyrics, it’s anti-Judaism, and thusly anti-religion because Judaism is the mother of all the monotheistic religions. Now… that basic message of being against monotheistic religion is one that is quite common amongst almost everyone I know, and is a theme that has even come up quite frequently in the work of Jason Byron, lyricist of KAYO DOT. I think it’s a pretty clumsy, adolescent move to try to wrap a statement against monotheism in with storytelling about the Holocaust, but of course we all accept many dumb and juvenile things about metal over and over and over again, collectively recognizing that genius is very, very far from what defines the genre.

What are you up to next – be it with KAYO DOT or other projects?
I’ve been practicing a lot of hammered dulcimer, and have been playing bass on a couple prog records by friends of mine. I have a handful of solo shows for my Alora Crucible thing coming up pretty soon, hoping that they don’t get canceled. You can find the dates on my website tobydriver.com .

Let’s end our interview with a quick brainstorm. What comes to mind when you think of the following keywords?
Short stories: Currently reading „Songs of a Dead Dreamer“ and „Grimscribe“ by Thomas Ligotti.
DIY: Me booking tours.
Metal: When it’s good, it’s really good.
Social media: Toxic
Concept album: „Hubardo“
Your most accessible song: „Void in Virgo“

Thank you for your time. Is there anything else you want to share with the readers?
Thank you, too. Hope to see everyone soon.

Publiziert am 20. Februar 2022 von Stephan Rajchl